Ever wonder what it takes to design a geocoin? Join me as I talk with Christian Mackey, aka FoxandtheHound, as we talk about geocoins and what it takes to create one.
Sources and Related Material
– Geocoin FAQ (geocaching.com)
Guest contact info here
Aura Design Group
Transcript
Intro: [00:00:00] There’s a world of geocaches right out your door. Come on now, let’s go explore.
Welcome to Geocache Adventures, the podcast where we explore everything geocaching. I’m your host, ShadowDragon1. I love geocaching. If you’re listening to this, you probably love it too. If you enjoy the podcast, consider sharing it with somebody that you think would love it. You can also follow the podcast on Instagram and Facebook, and there’s a Facebook group as well, so you can join in the fun and share your adventures.
There’s also a Patreon page that you can join and unlock exclusive [00:01:00] content.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Hi everybody, Amie, Shadowdragn1 here, and with me today is Christian Mackey, aka Fox and the Hound. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Christian: I’m glad to be here.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: So we are going to talk geocoins, but before we get started, I always like to hear how did you get into geocaching?
Christian: Ooh, that’s a that’s actually an embarrassing story. uh, my, uh, my friend, Eric Fox and I would go hiking a lot, particularly up in the up in the White Mountains National Park, like up towards New Hampshire, Mount Washington area. And so we would be up there and some of these like , really out in the middle of nowhere areas.
And our parents were, you know, always concerned like, you know, that we make it back. And as a Christmas gift, my parents had picture or bought me a GPS unit and I knew nothing about how to use it. So I did a quick Google search and it took me to this forum where there’s a super helpful people and I bookmarked it.
I’m like, I’m gonna have to go read some more about what they do [00:02:00] later I said, I don’t have time to work on that right now. We’re about to leave on a 13 day hiking trip up in Alaska. So
I’ll check that when I get back. And so, uh, we got back and Fox asked me, he’s like, do you know anything about this geocaching thing?
And I’m like, you know what, that’s that bookmark that I was telling you about. I’m like, we were going to check it out when we got back. And of course, it turned out we’d been hiking all over the place in Alaska. We’d been walking right past caches left and right. So, was, uh, that was pretty amusing to realize after the fact.
But, uh, it didn’t take long before we jumped right in it and, uh, We were awful at it. We started in the middle of winter, we DNF’d our first three attempts, it was, was bad. I, we really should have read the, you know, instructions a little better before we tried. But, uh, once you find your first cache, it’s all over.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: I’m imprressed you kept after it after the, not finding the first three. That is usually discouraging for a lot of people.
Christian: We did find out that the, uh, the first one we looked for was actually missing, we [00:03:00] found out later. The second one was a multi k, uh, multi cache. And the first stage was missing, but later we met cachers in the field who happened to have the second stage cords still in their GPS and they share them with us.
So we did end up finally going back and getting the Smiley on that one.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Oh, nice.
Christian: I don’t know why we had equated the smaller the cache size the easier. We were thinking it was like a difficulty level thing. we’re in a foot of snow thinking smaller, it is easy. It’ll be like the, the, the. Less difficult. It will be not realizing that was a size of the container, not the difficulty level that we were looking at. so, you know, and we were in the town square trying to be, you know, inconspicuous directly in front of City Hall and the police department, know, wandering around, you know, wandering around, lifting stuff and kicking snow for the better part of an hour and a half.
And I said, if we don’t 10 minutes, we’re done. We’re just gonna give it up. We’re bad at this. And, uh, yeah. We were walking back to the [00:04:00] car. We’d actually given up. And as we went to get back in the car, Eric looks down. He says, you don’t think this is it? He said, looks like a film container with a G on it. And I said, it might be. And he pulls it out. We found it and we’re like, Oh, we’re so good at this. So yeah, that was pretty great. Embarrassing, but you know, it was pretty great. You know, it was fun to, it was fun then to kind of like really sit down and read a little bit more about how it worked and then. The idea of just going out and doing all this stuff, it was great. He knew about letterboxing and stuff and waymarking. So I’d never heard of anything, but he said, you know, all the big peaks in the lower 48 have, a lot of these will have like a small cash container of some kind at the top of the peak, and a lot of them have journal books. And people had been writing in these things for, you know, decades. And I’d never heard of this, but apparently they’re all over. And I was just, you know, I was enamored with the whole idea of going You know, playing hide and seek, basically.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Yeah.
Christian: Uh, yeah. And then, [00:05:00] you know, it was, uh, when we started, there were not a lot of people in our area doing it, so was kind of neat to find something that was, you know, pretty secretive and pretty new and, you know, it was already doing, you know, it was basically gave us a goal right alongside what we were already doing, was, you know, fishing and hiking and, you know, climbing and, you know, mountaineering
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Very cool.
Christian: it was a great fit.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Awesome. Yeah. It’s, it’s really a hobby that complements a lot of outdoor activities like that.
Christian: Absolutely.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: So let’s talk geocoins.
A lot of people love these things. What’s recognized as the first geocoin. Uh, was created in 2001 by Geocacher Moun10Bike, and then around 2004, they started becoming very popular. And why don’t you, for those newer, tell us a little bit more about what Geocoins are.
Christian: Well, there’s been a lot of, uh, there’s [00:06:00] been a lot of debate over that. Um, a lot of great discussions over that, over the years. But, um, in essence, they are a memento. So either it’s a personal memento, it’s a personal signature, it might be a memento to an event, it’s a memento to an objective that’s been accomplished, it’s a, you know, sometimes it’s a promotional piece, um, and the idea for me, you know, the way that I first found out about them, that they were personal signatures.
These were a way sharing with your community that you know, you found something and you put it out there or just a creative way of putting your own name out there. You know, within the community, um, the first signature item I ever found was a button. Um in the, in the course of looking for signatures, and it was a simple button, it’s maybe not even three quarters of an inch. And it [00:07:00] said, uh, Nanny Nanny Boo Boo. I was here first.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Oh,
Christian: And I don’t recall the cacher’s name, but I never forgot that. And I loved that. I wore that on my, on my swag bag for years before I lost it. but I loved the idea that it was kind of a, the sort of, you know, the whole, um, was it a Gilroy was here type thing?
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Yeah.
Christian: Its a way to say that I’d been here and I, you know, I approved and I left this thing. And, uh, so I loved that idea. And I loved the idea of making a personal signature And since then. signatures, um, I think kind of overlapped with coins. And I think that was John’s idea when he first made it.
It was a way to make a signature to put out there in the world that said, Look what I found, you know, and if you come along and find it, you know, this is, you know, I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. I assume that’s kind of the mindset from what he’s said over the years. I like, I liked that idea that it was a [00:08:00] way to give to and strengthen your community.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Yeah, they’re really neat. So you have the signature items like Pathetags. People are very familiar with and then you have ones like you were saying from events and stuff that usually have a tracking code that go with them now. So you have this real mix of different types of, of coin items.
Christian: Yeah. I mean, you know, the advent of the clubs, you know, that we’re making monthly pieces. And then, um, for us, I mean, for local, smaller geocaching groups like a small or small and large geocaching organizations, a lot of them had over time started doing a group coin where everybody got a chance to have their own version of that. I love that, you know, because now you have a personal signature, but it’s also part of something bigger than yourself. And, you know, and I think coins and particularly signature coins, path tags and signature geocoins, personal geocoins, [00:09:00] a subset of a subset within geocaching. They’re a I think when their geocaching is a geo cashers are a really big group, but then within that group you have sort of special interests.
You have those guys that are all about the terrain, five hanging off a tight, you know, tightrope to find a cache. And you have the people that are just trying to go for the numbers. ’cause for them it’s, it’s like a score sheet. And then there’s people that only look for, you know, ammo can of the woods.
And there’s people that love to go to all of the sort of like puzzles. And I love that it’s a little something for everyone. I think though. I think it’s, it’s one of those subsets where take that game to the next level and I think it’s, it’s a way to elevate and improve the game. It was, for me, it was real treasure. It was a difference between swag and treasure, I guess. Um, the first time we found a coin was, um, it was Christmas Eve, uh, December 2005. And we [00:10:00] We had a big storm heading in and Fox called me up and said, Hey, a coin just landed in a cache near us. Do you want to go find it? And I was like, Yes, let’s go do it.
But we’re gonna have to hurry. We’ve only got a couple hours because it’s getting pitch dark. It’s, you know, it’s December. And so we went charging up a hill thinking we were just gonna run up there and find a coin. But realizing that it was like a six stage multi cache and it was miles of hiking back and forth over the top of
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Oh my.
Christian: We did finally find it, and I, I thought it was the most beautiful thing I’d ever seen. It was, it was like, you know, you felt like Indiana Jones holding that golden idol, you know. And years later I look back and I laugh, because it was, it was that kind of generic, like, um, the generic, you know, USA Geocoin.
It was just a plain bronze, single stamped coin. Uh, it was called Melissa, and it’s, um, it had a mission to go to all six continents. And I thought that was, that’s kind of wild. I [00:11:00] just was really enamored with the idea. That’s what captured my attention was that first simple coin. And then I got on the coin forums and then I just, it was never enough.
I just wanted to know more.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: So how did you make that transition from being interested in them to actually designing them?
Christian: That was a, that was kind of a, a couple leaps. Um, I first found out about them, like, Oh, we, you know, we got to do this. This is the coolest thing ever. then I sort of immediately found out like, Oh, these things actually cost money to make. And so then I was kind of hesitant because, you know, it’s, you know, it’s like a tattoo.
You’re stuck with it forever if once you make it. That’s, it’s not going to disappear. It’s got to be around forever and your name’s attached to it. So liked the idea of the coin, but I wasn’t sure I was ready yet. And so I initially started working on a signature tag. there were a lot of things that I was considering at the time.
So I’m, I have a, my background is advertising print design. [00:12:00] And so commercial animation and production. I worked for a television stations and I did pretty much everything that you can imagine to promote any company of any size. I had a little bit of, a little bit of, you know, this kind of like prints and a little bit of animation, a little bit of 3D modeling. A little bit of like vinyl and like a cut vinyl and vehicle wraps and a bridge. I’d kind of done a little bit of everything, but the idea of doing a coin, that was just, that was a lot. Like, I really wanted to think about it. I had a bazillion questions, and I was constantly posting more coin, or coin questions, to the people in the forums. And someone finally reached out to me, like, PMed me on the side, and they’re like, Hey, you know, you look, you have a lot of questions. You should probably ask this guy. Here’s his email. He’s kind of like, knows everything about coins. You know, like, he can help you out. And so I was really concerned with, um, the limitations of the coins, where you couldn’t do gradients of color, where, um, the number of layers that you could go up or down in a coin seemed very, [00:13:00] very prohibitive. and so I really wanted to push the envelope for stuff. I wanted to do something that hadn’t been done before. And so I started e mailing this guy with, you know, I, you know, I just sent out a general email at first with some questions and he got right back to me. I’m like, this is great. So then I was through some more stuff at him and he got back to me.
And then it was three, four times a day I was emailing this guy for weeks and weeks. He was so, he was so kind and he was so patient with me about getting all this figured out. And I did finally figure out how to, you know, I made my first signature item and he was, he was super cool. He was like, hey, you know, throw, you know, send a couple to me.
I’d love to see when it’s done. Cause he had helped me through to that point. And, uh, I sent a couple off to him and promptly forgot about it because I was already thinking about other coin stuff. And a few weeks later, I got a package in the mail from Washington state and I’m thinking, why is my brother sending something from that far south?
You know, because my family is still over there. And then, uh, I opened up this package and [00:14:00] I pour it out and it says, thanks for the trade. And it was a couple, um, it was a couple of lapel pins and wood nickels with a moun10bike on it.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Oh,
Christian: John Stanley this whole time with all my questions and he was super cool about it.
I’m like, wow, I, you know, I owe this guy a drink because this was a lot, you know, but was super cool. And he, and he was, I think he was just as interested in the ideas of, of pushing the envelope. And so my first signature coin was actually, The little clear acrylic coin safes, uh, they’re called air tights.
It’s what you would put, um, like coin collectors would put their, you know,
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Okay.
Christian: To keep them safe and keep them, you know, from, you know, from getting oxygen or oxidized over time. And so I figured out that I could actually print, you know, pieces of paper and stick them inside of these coin safes with a little bit of, uh, packaging inside of them to kind of keep them pressed hard and tight. I made about a, I don’t know, about 200, oh, uh, ones. [00:15:00] Um, someone just actually found one for me and sent it back. Um, I found, and so, it was a little acrylic coin safe. So I made these little tokens, and I would drop them into caches. And, I thought that was the greatest idea, and I, and I loved it. And, and as soon as I was done with that, then had a, I had a chance to help somebody with a coin design. who actually had a budget and a good idea in mind, but they didn’t have the computer skills. And they reached out and said, could you help me? And I’m like, yeah, sure. So just, you know, don’t tell anybody because I, you know, I don’t know what I’m doing and we’re just kind of like kind of learn this together. this goes horribly wrong, don’t stomp my name, you know, on it, but it turned out we did great. It was the EOO trackers and they had done their personal coin and it had a great response and then going through that. It kind of a real wake up call of what it takes to go [00:16:00] from the beginning stages to the end. then after that, I was really, you know, was still stuck on the idea. Fox was like, let’s just do it. You know, we’ll go halves on this and we’ll get one made. So we made a coin for the two of, you know, for both of us. uh, and since then, you know, I’ve made them for my wife and my child and my mother and everybody else who’s, you know, caching in the caching family.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: So how long has be you um, basically doing the coin design stuff?
Christian: I got started, I would say, I started caching the fall of 2005 and over the winter of 2005 into 2006, designed the first coin, know, with the, with the EO trackers. And then by that spring, I had designed two or three more, um, and was kind of learning as I go type thing. We did almost, you know, almost immediately after having done a couple coins, we made our first personal. but like with anything, [00:17:00] you know, making your first personal, I, you know, we, it was two of us involved and we both had ideas about what we wanted and we threw around a lot of ideas. before it was over, we settled on one, but we still had several that were left over um, direct mint had helped us.
Um, back then it was called personal coins. They had helped us make our first personal coin. And we’re like, that was great. But we knew that they did, um, the Geocoin Club. And so, and I also, I knew that he did a lot of other coins for other people. And I, so I reached out to them and said, Hey, you know, I, I have some other designs that we didn’t use.
Do you guys want them? And were like, well, I mean, show us what you got. And so I sent them some designs, you know, the, they were the rejects. I mean, they were good. They just, they weren’t what we wanted for a personal coin. Um, think I was thinking a little too broadly at the time, but they were like, Yeah, these are great.
You know, what do you want? And I’m like, what do you mean? And they’re like, well, what do you want for the designs? I’m like, [00:18:00] coins? And they’re like, okay, sure. No, we’ll, we’ll throw you some coins. I’m like, okay, great. You know? And so I finished up the artwork and sent it off. And uh, they made, um, they made a couple of coins.
And so we did, I think the first two was the. was the first to find coin and the Cash Critters coin that were part of Geocoin Club and the Coin Store. And those went over really well and then they, I think those were Coin Store, they’re sort of generic designs that people could get way back in the day. the first club coin I think we did was the last cash of the day, you know, the one with the little beer mug.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Okay.
Christian: uh, and so that was kind of, uh, that was kind of our intro into, uh, doing this. And as a professional artist, I, you know, I would be working 10, 12, 14 hours a day doing artwork. And you come home and the last thing you want to do is artwork. It’s it’s easy to get burned out fast. And you get, you kind of [00:19:00] forget why you do what you do. But it’s, you know, it’s because you love it. And I think coins was kind of a way to do something I love just for the sake of creativity. It was just for the fun of it. And And I, I think for that, it was, that was my creative outlet.
It was a way to do artwork and it wasn’t about money. It was just about having fun and about, you know, just putting something out there. You know, something that didn’t disappear. You know, I worked in television news, so a lot of the graphics and design work that I was making, you might work, you know, all day long and you’re, you know, and the, entire news program is 30 minutes long, so, your mark, your artwork might be seen for three or four seconds at a time and it’s just gone. It was like the fast food of our world.
Coin was something entirely different. That’s something that was going to be around for a long time, and I kind of loved that idea. And that’s, once you, once you started figuring it out, each time we did something it was like, well what else can we do? [00:20:00] You know,
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: How can you push it to the next level?
Christian: Right.
And I think, uh, and I think that was a big thing. Uh, when I started everything was two levels on coins. There was the surface level of the coin, whatever was recessed into the coin that was filled with color, or with a texture or something. But that was it. There were two color, or there were two levels, and was kind of, was kind of it.
And it was just people in the community helping other people in the community. I think one of the greatest projects I saw like that was Parents of Sam. Where they said, hey, we want to make a coin, you know, here’s our idea. the community just over the course of probably two days, everybody just kept throwing ideas out there.
And then people help them sort of put it together and then came up with, you know, and it became like a community effort to help them make a coin. And then eventually it was completed, and it’s still one of my favorites. I just I love that community aspect of it.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: That’s awesome. So can you [00:21:00] kind of of walk,
us through how the process of design to production is sort of like, you know, high level explanation of how this works?
Christian: There’s kind of three stages. So you have to get the design and the design is a whole process in and of itself, but you get your design worked out. Once the design is worked out, you actually have to build artwork that the mint can convert. So, um, they can actually use to cut CNC dies. Um, the problem with a lot of what we’re doing, People will come up with really clever drawings or illustrations, but it’s very, it’s all shaded, but that really only lends itself to doing something like 3D. So it, it limits how you can get it done. So I think that’s where having some help from someone who’s been through it before goes a long way, but you can, you get your design together. you have your design, you can get it to the mint. Usually you with the help of a producer, like a coin [00:22:00] producer, someone who’s done this before, cause they. Kind of know all the tips and tricks to make it work. Um, the coin producer will work with mint to get you artwork as close to your submitted art as possible. And then you’ll actually make a physical coin, what they call a sample. So the mint will cut dies and they will actually uh, stamp out a few coins, just a handful. And they will add any enamels or finished platings and stuff that you like. And then they’ll get them back to the producer and the producer will mail them to you so you can actually hold them in hand and look at them.
Um, I have found that is probably the most shocking part of every coin production is holding it in hand for the first time. Because you always kind of think you know what it’s going to be. it’s never, it’s never that. I’ve, I’ve been through this so many times and it’s never exactly what you think it’s going to be.
And if it is, it’s even more shocking. But, but having them in hand for the first time gives you a real idea, did I do everything right or do I need to make any last minute decisions to [00:23:00] change stuff. And if you want to make the changes, that’s, that’s it, that’s your last shot before you kind of go in for it. But the upside is you haven’t invested any real money yet. You know, having your dice cut and having some samples made is very, it’s a very small portion of the cost of doing a coin. So if it doesn’t work out, you can always just say, nah, I changed my mind. You’re not, you know, you’re not, you know, in it hip deep and worried about the expenses. It isn’t until everything is absolutely nailed down. This is perfect, this is exactly what I want. You come up with your final numbers, and then the mint will actually go. That’s the third step, they’ll go to full production. They’ll get them all, they’ll, you know, whack them all out at the same time, and then ship them to you.
The, it’s, a lot of people, um, to try, because I think it, it seems like a daunting task. and I tell them to, it’s like eating an elephant. And you know, how do you eat enough at one bite at a time? You have to start with [00:24:00] small steps. So start with just getting the design then and then go to just getting your samples and sit on it.
Think about it. You’ve got time that once you’ve made those, once they cut those dyes, they generally will set those dyes on a shelf for up to three years. So the cost of producing it might change slightly. They may re quote you if you let it sit too long, but you don’t have to move on it immediately. And then once you’re ready to finally make that move, then you go ahead and that’s your third step. So I, I don’t think it has to be crazy. I’ve seen people say, no, I’m doing this with my tax return. They did the design one year, they did their dyes next year, and they did their production the third year because that’s what worked for them. fine. And that’s because they, they didn’t want to get in over their heads. And it gave them enough time to really think about it. So it can be as fast or slow as you want Well, relatively fast for coins. Fast for coins is, you know, I think the fastest nowadays is probably three or four months
to get a coin made. [00:25:00] So, yeah.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: So what’s the design process like?
Christian: So, are we talking about a personal coin or like a commercial coin? Because it’s a little different for each scenario
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Uh, let’s talk about personal coins. I think those are probably the more, um, abundant among individual cachers.
Christian: Okay. So a lot of times I have people come to me and say I want to make a personal coin But I don’t know what I want to make or what I want to do and a lot of times I say, you know, let’s talk about what’s most important to you. How did you why did you know? What is it you love about cashing? What got you into cashing?
What is the thing that is kind of your theme? so you know for someone who’s You know, it’s all about fishing, you know, that’s their thing is, you know They want something that sort of incorporates their fishing that’s, I say, all right, let’s prioritize the things that are most important to you. And I say, let’s start with a list of just like 12 things and, or 20 things, however many you can come up with, but [00:26:00] prioritize what’s the most important part of caching for you. Is it the hiking? Is it the exercise? Is it the community? Is it out in nature? Like everybody kind of does caching for different reasons.
And so a lot of that is part of your personal story. I think that’s important to, to express something that represents you. Let’s start with what represents you. What are those things? So make that list, you know, of 10 things. Then sit on it for a couple days. Don’t look at it. Then go back and read that list and see what you forgot. And start putting them in a priority list. Start prioritizing what’s the most important aspect. Move that to the top of the list. So order on, you know, organize your lists from top to bottom, most important to least important. And then come back around, give it a couple days and look at it again, because you’ll think about it something, you’re like, well, I changed my mind, this is actually more important. And it’s kind of funny, like people [00:27:00] will sort of work out the problem almost unconsciously, you know, or some subconsciously what’s most important to them. So it’ll change as you go. And I think once you sort of have that priority list, design works a lot like that, too. Um, design is usually a set of priorities.
Your largest, most, you know, important piece of information will take up roughly 66 percent of your design space. And the next most important will take up 66 percent of that 66. then the next will be 66 of the 66 So it gets progressively smaller and less important. So When you’re thinking about, like, visual weight for design and stuff, it always is the most important things, and then kind of everything will fall into place around that. And so, I think it helps having that priority list and having an idea early on goes a long way towards just making it a smoother, um, [00:28:00] a smoother process, less stress. I, I think a overthink things, especially. Especially cashers, you know, you’re walking down the trail and everything’s, you know, your, your, your brain is like, I’m out here to relax and you just start thinking about everything. But I think, uh, when it comes to, when it comes to a coin, that’s like I said, like, it’s almost like a tattoo. You’re stuck with it for a long time. So a lot of people will, they’ll think about it, think about it, think about it and talk themselves out of it because they’re afraid to take that step. And I think a lot of times just doing it with someone else who’s already been through the process is, is super helpful. And it doesn’t mean you have to go with a professional designer. Just go with someone else who’s also gone through the process of making a coin so you don’t feel like you’re surprised. Um, I’ve joked with a lot of my clients that, my job is a professional hand holder. I’m putting, you know, I’m putting your ideas forward. So, like, it might be, you know, it [00:29:00] might be my illustration, or my composition, but it’s your ideas and it’s your story. Let’s, you know, let’s make this about you, make this, you know, circle around what’s most important to you, and then going to help you through each stage so that you’re not, you know, overwhelmed by the next stage. I think it’s like, like anybody at home doing a DIY project, you know, You don’t mind the idea of trying, but you’d feel a lot better if there were a general contractor standing next to you while you did it. You know, you know, telling you don’t do that or maybe try this instead. You know, and I think just because someone who’s had enough experience and been through it enough times, you start learning a lot of tricks. Um, a lot of times, um, budget is the make it or break it thing, but budget is very, um, subjective because there are things you could do to make coins less expensive. You know, um, It could be as simple as metal finishes, or the number of enamels you use, or the type of dyes you use. And if you know all the tips and tricks. [00:30:00] You know, you can, you can severely change how, know, how that affects your budget and it doesn’t have to be a coin. That’s any less cool. You know, sometimes it’s just a different set of rules. That’s just a different game. You could still win.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Okay. So when you’re designing a coin for like an event or an organization, how does that process kind of vary for you?
Christian: So for the events, um, it can be, it can be similar. Um, a lot of times events already kind of have an idea of what they want. so like for a geocoin fest, we just had a few weeks ago. Um, that was a great project to work on. Um, Bill Davies, it was, uh, was working on that. And he approached me and said, Hey, I, you know, I got some ideas, what do you think?
And so it was a matter of, to do some stained glass windows. And so we were going to do a set of coins that would match the themes of the projects of, or of the [00:31:00] different projects. The different things that were going to be available, the different activities, whether it’s apple picking or going to the corn mazes locally in upstate New York, um, going to the wineries that were in the Finger Lakes region right down the road. So, he had a series of these ideas, and so we would build a series of coins, but with the background is obviously, you know, and advertising, my thought is, you know, okay, well, you know, We’ve got to combine all these things to work for the logo, and so we love that idea. If we’re going to do the Suncatcher, let’s do a whole sort of stunt, you know, uh, stained glass look. a stained glass look, you know, is, it’s an old form of artwork. So let’s choose forms and fonts that are old school sign board sort of looks, you know, have the turn of the century lettering to go with it. And so, and then it’s a matter of just gathering all the materials together, um, gathering illustrations. And a lot of times, you know, you know, I might wrap, I might find, you know, 20 Illustrations that I think are [00:32:00] perfect, but only half of them meet what’s in that client’s mind, you know, and so it’s, it’s a back and forth of sharing ideas. we’ll go through and sort of sketch out these ideas for this for the, um, for the process of doing the coins.
And the idea that he had, I thought was, was really, um, was really great. I was concerned with that. how do we make it work? Um, how do we make it, um, actually go together? ’cause a SunCatcher coin is, is like two piece, it’s two coins that are actually pressed together at the mint. And so my concern was how are we gonna press these together?
’cause at the size we were making them, I was concerned whether it was gonna be feasible, whether they would fall apart, whether they would be too delicate. And they, actually I have one, um, they would, the mint actually, by again, working with the producer was a huge, was a huge help because they actually came up, they talked to the mint and said how, how would we best [00:33:00] do this?
And they came up with the idea to build a slot the coin where the sunglass, the sun catcher can come out.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: wow.
Christian: And so building, that’s something we’d never even considered before. My initial thought was to make two half rings that would snap together and hold this. they were like, yeah, we could just actually die it. So that it goes together and builds your coin.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: That is such a great idea.
Christian: So, a lot of times, um, a lot of times it’s just a matter of, um, Um, a lot of, a lot of times I have this sort of like, well I have an idea but it sounds stupid. And I’m like, don’t, don’t say that. Because most of the ideas that we have were not even a consideration just a few years ago.
Every couple of years we do something that’s completely different. I’m, completing designs 06 and 07. They just weren’t feasible back then but suddenly have become [00:34:00] because what we’re doing has changed. You know, there are stuff, you know, there are ideas that are out there that are a far fetched, but with a little bit of ingenuity and some help and some brainstorming with, you know, with your clients, it can happen. Yeah, so I think a lot of times it’s just anything’s possible, but it’s just how do we do it? So And, you know, aim for the aim where they say, uh, aim for the sun, you know, you know, last of the moon. once you do that, then aim for the stars,
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Yeah.
Christian: So, yeah, big ideas are not, you know, are not impossible. They just take more thought.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: So have you seen a lot of different design innovations since you started to allow for, for new and different types of things?
Christian: I really have a lot of the things that we’ve done were kind of first time things. Like I said, when we first started, there was the idea was, um, you could get a coin, know, it would be a surface level coin, they would stamp something into [00:35:00] it. So you would have kind of a single recess. And then almost immediately after I started, they had a a half recess and a full recess.
I’m like, all right, well, that’s kind of cool. And then the idea was, well, can you also go up? And they were like, yeah, we can go up like half of, half a layer. it’s like, well, why, if you can go down a full layer, why can’t you go up a full layer too? And they’re like, some of the mints were like, yeah, we’re not doing that.
And others were like, yeah, sure, we can do that. So we went from having one up, one down this, you know, the base layer of the coin, half down, full down, half up, full up. Now you have five layers. work with. And so that was a huge, huge difference. I mean, almost immediately everything changed as far as what we could do. And so was, I think, uh, that was, or sort of the first big technical change that we saw happen with, uh, coins. And then I think followed that. I think by 2007, 2008, we started seeing for the [00:36:00] very first time, translucent enamel. That was something that hadn’t really been, that just wasn’t really a thing yet. Um, and I forget what year Craig did his Sun Catchers, but the first time he did those, everybody lost their minds because it was a brilliant idea. no one had thought of it yet. someone had to be the first one to say, I wonder if we could do this. And then, sure enough. So, um, a lot of that has changed over time. of the things that I found, um, I’ve been working with the Geocoin Club for, um, quite a few years, since about, well, since about 2006. over time, um, some of the things that we’ve done, um, have changed as far as, um, our, our goals and our aims. They came up with the idea of the path tags, and then we said, well, how could we make a path tag, which is a personal coin, um, also trackable and travel?
And so we came up with the Sherpa coin. the idea of a coin that could hold a tag in it and travel. [00:37:00] And so, you know, we started with the magnets and that was a way to get a truly personal coin that was out there traveling around because you could take one of your path tags and send it, you know, send it on haul. Um, and so that was another one of those sort of like breaking the rules where we started making multi piece coins using magnets. So we had coins that were held together with magnets. Later on it would be, you know, coins held together with tension or gravity or, you know, pieces that hung like, uh, like charms on a central coin.
Um, there might be like individual pieces, uh, like the sun, uh, what was it, the, uh, dream catchers, where you had the little feathers hanging from a, a parent coin. So it was once the ideas started to sort of expand, it almost immediately, you know, people’s imaginations got really rolling. And then it took off. A lot of times the ideas are the hard part. The hardest work is the idea. [00:38:00] It’s not so much making it happen. you know, physics is the only thing holding you back when it comes to making it happen. But coming up with a decent idea is tough. Um, one of, uh, I had someone was asking me about some, uh, about coins the other day.
And it was funny, I found a coin in the bottom of my cashing bag, and I forgot that it was in there. It was, uh, think I’d taken a long to show someone, but we had made a, this piece, the coin bit. this is a tag that when you attach it, you actually use a little piece of 550 paracord. You attach it to your bag, say the loop at the top of your bag.
You throw the cord around a tree or a street pole or anything else. And then there’s a tension. piece, and it’s just simple physics. It’s a hole that’s like, gets small, smaller as it goes. But once you’ve wrapped it around a tree or something, you can literally it through and you get a tension hold. So you could actually use that to hold your bag up off the ground in a tree. So if it’s [00:39:00] wet or rainy out, you don’t want to set your swag bag down. You’re trying to get into it. Um, and you know, you don’t want to get ticks on it or mud on it or dirt or whatever. It’s a way to hold your bag up off the ground and get your both hands free when you’re trying to pull out a water bottle or a pen to sign the cash or whatever it is. The idea is really, really simple, but it took a little bit of testing with a, you know, with a chunk of metal in the basement with a grinder and a Dremel just to see if I could actually make it work. And so it, sometimes it’s just fussing around with ideas until you find a way to make that happen. Um, But again, it’s always, it’s always the ideas that are the hard part. I think if, uh, I think if you have, if you’re determined to make it happen, we’ll find a way to make it happen. You know, and, yeah, that’s, uh, what is it, uh, Henry Ford, that’s my favorite quote, um, from Henry Ford was that, uh, he said, working, or he said, thinking is the hardest work [00:40:00] there is, and probably why so few endeavor in it. And, but I mean, you know, I think that was one of those things. It’s like, you know, walking down the trail, you know, why do I, why am I doing this? Why do I love this so much? Why are, you know, why are CETOs my favorite events? Because I love that every time you pick up one small thing, something that’s just, it’s, it’s, even though somebody, you know, the next hiker on the trail doesn’t realize it, their experience was just a little bit better because there wasn’t something negative to detract from their experience. And I, and I just love that idea. I love that each time you do something, even though it’s just a small thing, it makes it better. And coins are the same way. Every time someone puts a personal coin out there, you know, I look at that signature and I don’t just see, you know, the name of the coin. I think, somebody went through kind of a big journey to make that happen.
They did a lot of thought. They, you know, they went through that whole process of making a coin, which can sometimes be a little [00:41:00] daunting, but they saw it through. Yeah. I think that’s why I love the idea that when PathText came along, it was a way for people to kind of dive in and try something they hadn’t done before. it was, it was one of those, it was a true signature. It was that nanny nanny boo boo, I was here first, you know? It was a great, it was a great way to leave your name out there. So, yeah, it’s uh, I highly recommend for anyone to try making, not just making a signature item, Um, my all time favorite signature item that I’ve ever collected collected was, uh, it in. It was in a cache that was embedded in an icy waterfall in New Hampshire. And, um, it was a, uh, someone had taken little squares, maybe two inch squares uh, of, uh, like counted cross stitch fabric. And over the winter they had did counted cross stitch little [00:42:00] ground speak. know, geocaching logos. it just, and just, and at the bottom it just said Karen.
It was Cache and Karen, you know. And it was like, and each one of them had a little number. And I found this little paper envelope with this little counter cross stitch piece. But, you know, my family, you know, counter cross stitch was a big thing in my family. And I knew how many hours it takes to do even a moderately small piece. And I thought, that’s the coolest thing. That has personal value. Because that’s hours. Or that’s time that can’t be replaced. That’s someone doing something for the love of the game. And I’m like, that is so cool. I love seeing people try new stuff. I’ve seen some of the coolest signatures.
Somebody, you know, carving pieces out of bone. Someone making something out of clay. the coins. I think the coin is, you know, can feel sometimes like the pinnacle. But I think getting up to the point coin. I don’t think I ever would have made the coin if I hadn’t started with the little airtight signature. I had to make a token and work my way [00:43:00] up, you know. think path tags are kind of like that too. I’ve had a lot of people who’ve made path tags year after year, and they’ve said, I’m ready for a coin now. I had enough practice, I’m ready for a coin now. I’m like, alright, let’s do it. Let’s talk about your ideas, you know. So, it’s, it’s a leap, but, you know, it’s entirely doable. I think everybody can do it, I think it’s just, taking the first step is tough.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: That’s usually is for anything.
Christian: Yeah.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: So when you finally go through,,
you get your design, you’ve gotten your samples and you’re set and you pull the trigger about how long does it take from saying, go. To getting a final product, roughly. I mean, obviously it’s going to vary based on supplier chains and all that, but roughly how long in your experience does it usually take?
Christian: We’re just talk in general averages. So, um, getting your initial artwork, like say you get your design, however long it takes to get your [00:44:00] design, but you got your design, you get it to the mint. The process of getting the mint to sort of get that artwork converted to something they can make, um, into coins is actually pretty quick.
It’s maybe two weeks on average. Sometimes it’s just a few days. If they have some, if they have really clear directions, it could be just a couple of days. usually, I would say, like, 8 to 10 business days, you can have artwork back from the mint that they’re ready to go with, if you like it. So, it’s very quick.
Um, generally, I’ll get artwork back, um, say I’m helping someone with a personal coin, and I might go a couple rounds just to make them, make small adjustments, change this, do this, you know, um, the color doesn’t look right here, you know, and we’ll make some minor adjustments. Samples after that can take 2 or 3 weeks. Sometimes, depending on the time of the year, it can be a little different because there are, you know, there are heavy, you know, demand times at the minute, and there are lighter times, and there’s national holidays like Chinese New Year, but usually just a few weeks. Um, once you [00:45:00] get the personal in hand and you look at it, you’re like, hey, I like this, we’re good. can be pretty fast. After that, after you give them the, you know, the green light to just go ahead and make them, you know, four or five weeks to actually produce them and then another week to a week and a half for shipping depending on where you are in the world. the whole process, once you give them the green light, I would say six to eight weeks, you know, completely, you know, all the way, you know, having them on your doorstep.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: That’s really quick.
Christian: It can be, um, but again, this is sort of, that’s your kind of average, if everything works out perfectly scenario. I’ve had, I’ve had coins, you know, in as short as 10 or 12 weeks. That has been a long time since that. Um, we’ve had coins that have taken 14 months.
So, it’s, you know, but on average, I, I tell people, you know, a great time to do this is in the fall and the winter. If you’re going to, you know, be cashing, well at least in the northern hemisphere, say you’re going to be cashing most of the time in the summer. [00:46:00] Um, you get cooped up in the house. This is a great time to. spend, you know, thinking about your coins because if you start, you know, in the winter, have them in the middle of the cashing season, you know, in the coming year or early in the year and you’ll have them, you know, for the whole, whole, you know, cashing season coming up. Um, yeah, there are some things that can take a little bit longer. Um, generally super high enamel count, like color counts and things like that can sometimes slow down the process a little bit. Um, It can, it can be pretty quick. Um, I would say on average though, I probably, I see four or five months, it’s usually the turnaround from start to stop.
Like someone approached me and said, let’s make a coin we start, if we start working on it within a week or two, then usually I would say four or five months later. If it’s, if there’s nothing crazy about it, if it’s a regular coin, there’s no moving parts, magnetics and things like that, no special mechanics, then it could be, it could [00:47:00] be pretty quick. But it’s an investment of time and, and energy, you know, you got to give it some thought.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Okay.
Christian: Yeah, yeah. Um, the one thing that I, um, I tell people to help, them sort of figure out what they’re doing, when it comes to the coin is, um, asking them, what are you doing with it? What, what’s the, is the purpose of the coin? Is it just to show people that you were there first? Is it just to give to friends? Is it something that you want to send out, you know, a trackable coin that’s going to get out there and travel and complete a mission? it some sort of promotional piece? Like, figure out what you want the coin to do first.
If you’re going to have multiple versions of it, do they all need to be trackable or do some of them need to be trackable? Are some going to be a special collector version, where you just need sequential numbering? If it’s a gift, you know, if some of these are going to be just given to friends, [00:48:00] it’s, you know, you know, there’s an inner circle of people who are going to get this one specific version of the coin, they’re never going to let it go.
Does it need to be trackable? Because they’re, you know, they’re, it’s always nice to make everything that I can make trackable, but if it’s, you know, if it doesn’t need to be, you know, you know, is there a purpose to it? You know, is there, is there an advantage to it? So if you didn’t make them, you know, say you made 200 coins and you only, and you knew 50 of them were never going anywhere.
If you didn’t make those trackable, then that’s money that you could put back towards something else like a glow in the dark enamel or something that costs a little bit more. So are a lot of, there’s a lot of little things that up and you kind of figuring out what you what you’re going to do can be. Maybe one of the most important things when considering a coin. Um, a lot of people, you know, have said, you know, how much does it cost to make a coin? Well, a path tag is a coin, you know, and you’re making that for roughly a dollar or two dollars. That’s, you know, that’s a coin. That’s, that’s a start. [00:49:00] So, you know, coins can average anywhere from, you know, a dollar or two like a path tag, um, up to of like the average, uh, one three quarter inch, maybe, um, three to, you know, three and a half millimeters thick, coin. They are, I don’t know, like probably around, and if it’s trackable, probably around seven and a half dollars, eight dollars. It hasn’t changed that much. That’s, that might be the most surprising about, part about this. Coins have gotten so much better and the options are so much, know, so much larger or wider, um, an array of options that you have. But when I started making coins in 05, they were You know, six, six and a half dollars, if they’re trackable, and it’s only gone up a dollar or two since then, and that’s been almost 20.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Wow.
Christian: Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s still surprising, you know, that there’s, they’re very much within reach, you know. I think the, um, I think the hardest part is just, like I [00:50:00] said, taking that first step and doing a little bit of thinking. Brainstorming is a huge thing. Sitting down and just sketching with someone, you know, whether they’re a coin designer or not, or just, you know, sitting there, you know, doing it on a cocktail, you know, cocktail napkin, just sketching out your ideas. There are people who are still sending their stuff in as just a line drawing on paper. Um, I tell people one of the, one of the best ways to do it is use chalk. Use, um, construction paper. Um, a lot of times when you’re designing a coin, not thinking about the fact that if it’s, if it’s silver, anything other than black nickel is not going to look like line art, you would draw it with a pen, right? So. If you have an iPad, make the screen black and draw with white where the silver metal is going to be, because everything is kind of inverted. Um, you end up, if you don’t think of that when you’re designing, sometimes you end up with that photo negative look to your coin.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Oh.
Christian: Thinking about that, you know, if you’re gonna, if you’re using, if you’re making a silver coin, if you’re making a gold coin, remember that gold is a color.
It’s a yellow color. So, use that as part of your, [00:51:00] as part of your design. I mean, that’s, It’s going to work. If you add a translucent blue over a gold coin, it’s going to have a green tint. Is that going to be an okay thing, or do you have to work around that? there’s a lot of little, little things like that, but starting, I think, starting with kids construction paper and stick of chalk, I think it’s a realistic idea.
People a lot of times over estimate how small the metal can be, and you know, So they can get overcomplicated with their ideas because they’re working large, you know, eight and a half by eleven paper and then you’re going to try to reduce this to a tenth of its size. So starting with chalk is great because it gives you nice fat lines and it kind of forces you to, to prioritize what’s biggest, what’s smallest. Um, I think that can go a long way towards, you know, helping you creatively think of solutions. when I was talking about the dyes and the dye lines. Uh, the thickness of the metal. So I grabbed [00:52:00] one of these just to show you. I brought one of these to Coin Fest. This is an actual
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: Oh, wow.
Christian: And so, this probably weighs, heavy.
You can see
holding it. There, this piece will set into sort of a large anvil at the foundry. And this will be the bottom half. And then a collar, like a collar ring will go around this that will hold. A sort of, they’ll heat up a slab of metal, like a round, um, chip of metal, so it’s almost melting and they’ll put it on top and they’ll take the other piece and they’ll bring it down on top. And this will actually be loaded into, what is it, um, the word coin is actually derived from the word kunis. It means to strike. And so this is literally a striker. Your piece will come down. Um, I was watching a, a, um. I was watching a documentary on this and they said that it’s struck, it’s about [00:53:00] 180 tons of force going at about 200 miles an hour when it smashes those two pieces together. And so those thin ribbons of metal, like you can imagine like how easily those could crack or break if they’re not, if you, if you overestimate how thin your metal lines can be. So there’s some things to consider when you’re designing a coin. You have to be realistic about just how small the details can be.
Um, but, yeah, then it’s just a matter of like, okay, you know, within those details, work within it. So, if you’re going to draw something out on paper, use a sharpie marker. Use something fat, you know, use a fat marker so that you can always get the lines a little thinner. But if you start with really thin, like, pencil lines or a ballpoint pen, then you’re not being realistic about what you’re going to accomplish in the finished design.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: If somebody wants to reach out to you with questions about Geocoins or help on a design, how can [00:54:00] they get ahold of you?
Christian: Um, these, well, you can always, you can always use, um, go to the website. That’s, uh, Aura design group. com. Um, I’m also on Facebook, um, as Christian Mackey and, you know, always look up the Fox and the Hound geocoin profile. I’m on Instagram as geofoxandthehound. Um, and generally if, uh, if you Google it, I’ve done, I’ve done enough coins or if you, if you ask enough people, someone, someone will, you know, point you in my direction.
But, uh, yeah. Just, uh, I say Aura Design Group, A U R A, designgroup. com is the fastest way to find the site, or reach me at Aura Design Group at Outlook. And, you know, hit me up. I’m always happy to talk about coins. I’ll sit here and work on coins and talk to people about ideas and sometimes it’s just that, sometimes it’s just know, let’s have a chat and get your [00:55:00] mind thinking about it and then come back a few weeks later, we’ll talk about some more and help you sort of sort out what’s, uh, what’s swimming around your head because a lot of times it’s just so many ideas and then how do you make all your ideas come together into something cohesive and, uh, But that’s, I love that part of it.
That’s it’s that rabbit hole of learning something new, learning somebody new, know, what’s important to each person.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: That’s very cool. Thank you so much for joining me today and talking Geocoins with us and walking us through your process. It’s been very educational, very, very entertaining.
Christian: It’s a lot to absorb. But, uh, I’ve been at it since 2005. Um, and we, someone had asked me, well, people have asked me, um, repeatedly over the years, how many have you designed? And honestly, I don’t know where it’s at now, but as of last January, it was just over 3, 200 coins and tags.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: That’s incredible.
Christian: Had a lot of chances to help people tell their [00:56:00] stories. And, I’m still doing it, and still, I still love it. It’s still one of my favorite things to do at work. So, yeah, there’s uh, there’s always another story.
Amie “Shadowdragn1”: That’s incredible. Thank you so much. so much.
Christian: Thanks for having me.
Outro: You’ve been listening to Geocache Adventures with me, Shadowdragn1. If you’d like to get in touch, you can reach out to me on Facebook, Instagram, or go to geocachedventures. org and you can find the information on the contact page. Theme music is by The Travel Bugs. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this episode.
Have you heard of FTF Magazine? It’s the magazine for geocachers. It is full of articles and pictures all submitted by geocachers just like you. I’m a subscriber myself and I love it. My favorite part is the little snippets on the edges of the articles on all the different pages. Those are my favorites.
Just go to ftfgeo. com to check them out and tell them Shadowdragn1 sent you. [00:57:00]
Geocache Adventures 